Hitting it on the nail:
ANGOLA, March 23, 2009 (LifeSiteNews.com) – In an address to the civil authorities of Angola on the last day of his trip to Africa, Pope Benedict XVI noted the “bitter irony” that, in the light of the “the crushing yoke of discrimination that women and girls so often endure,” including “unspeakable” sexual violence, abortion should be presented as a solution by international “human rights” groups.
“How bitter the irony of those who promote abortion as a form of ‘maternal’ healthcare!” the pope said. “How disconcerting the claim that the termination of life is a matter of reproductive health!” Pope Benedict said.
I’ll say.
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Andrea adds: And let’s be honest, it helps when non-Catholics stand up and say he is absolutely right. So let me add my voice of agreement to Brigitte’s!
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Tanya says: Make that 3 non-Catholics agreeing with the Pope right here. Very well said, indeed.
by 
Even though i am pro-choice, i do respect your views, and the rest of the ladies on this well run blog, on abortion. But i have to say that it really angers me to hear the Pope using the plight of women in Africa to scold human rights workers on abortion. they have a pretty bad record when it comes to women and children’s welfare. the lack of empathy towards women expressed by the catholic church is astounding. the Pope is only concerned about women in the context of abortion. They are so concerned about children that they allowed sexual abuse to occur for decades and all they did was turn a blind eye. If they are so pro woman then why aren’t they allowed to be priests? Why did the cardinal of mexico say recently that a woman’s place is in the house and shouldn’t work? Why did the cardinal of the Dominican Republic say that women are raped because of the way they dress? In my opinion, the catholic church has no moral ground to stand on.
J.R., I’m a Protestant, but I think the apostle Paul answered (or at least touched on) all three of your questions in his letter to Timothy:
I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. (1 Tim. 2:9-15)
@Jon,
those kinds of teachings are the reason why a left christianity(catholicism to be more specific). And thank goodness that the western world tries to practice separation of Church and State and govern using logic and reason. And I don’t live my life according to the Bible, Koran or any other book that basically enslaves women. I was born with a mind of my own, fortunately.
Oh and tell that to the women in Egypt and Saudi Arabia who are raped and harassed yet cover from head to toe. But, you know, i’m sure they must have done something to deserve a good raping.
J.R., as a bachelor, I can’t tell you about my wife. My mother and my two sisters are happy women. The older of my two sisters has been married for about ten years and has five children so far. She did most of the organizing for the celebration of my parents’ recent thirty-fifth wedding anniversary. The younger is the baby of the family and is not yet married. None of these three women are elders or deacons in the church, nor may they ever hold a church office. Indeed, they are happy and busy enough as mothers and housewives. “A man may work from sun to sun, but a woman’s work is never done.” It is our cruel secular humanist society with its feminist bent that has told the woman that to be fulfilled she must be have kids (well, one, anyway, many modern women still do want one) AND pursue a demanding career as something other than a housewife. There are the Sarah Palins, but most women aren’t super-women like Sarah Palin. And even Mrs. Palin’s family may have suffered; note the extra-marital pregnancy of her daughter, the oldest one, I think. As for Egypt and Saudi Arabia, they’re Muslim deserts. And no Christian automatically blames a woman for being raped. And even if she does share in the guilt because of her provocative manners or dress, the man is always more guilty. As with Adam and Eve. (But as a Protestant, I do not believe that their shared sin was a sexual sin.)
Jon, i never said that being a housewife or a mom is degrading. If your mother and sisters have found happiness in those roles, then more power to them. That verse from the Bible that you quoted is what degrades it.
Regarding rape, it doesn’t make a difference whether it’s islam or christianity. They share the same victim blaming mentality. It even insults men because it basically depicts men as animals. It presumes that men have no morals and no control over their own actions.
I grew up in a christian home and i turned away from it because i realized how oppressive it is to women and homosexuals. And feminism never told me that i have to have children and work. feminism is about freedom of choice. Feminism simply reinforced my sense of justice, empathy and my belief that we are all equal and deserve to be treated with respect and have the same opportunities. Honestly, i cringed reading that verse from the bible.
Regarding Palin, i don’t agree with her politics but i do think she has a nice family. I would never judge or blame Palin because her teen daughter is pregnant. But i’m curious as to why you don’t blame Todd Palin?
J.R., the verse 1 Tim. 2:9-15 certainly does not degrade women. The
apostle Paul there takes us right back to both the Creation and the
Fall. In the natural order of things, the man has greater authority
than the woman, just as God has greater authority than man. And if you
were raised as a Christian, then you’ll know that even within the
Trinity, there seems to be a hierarchy of sorts: the Holy Spirit always
glorifies the Son, and the Son always glorifies the Father. This order
is not degrading; it is good and lovely.
After the Creation there was the Fall, and the part that the woman
played in it. But there is also the promise, the gospel. That gospel
was first given to the woman. It’s Genesis 3:15, the protoevangelum.
The primary task of women through history has been the reproduction of
the human race, and this same task has also been woman’s redemption.
The promise was that from Eve would come a man who would reverse the
effects of the Fall. That man, of course, was Jesus Christ, and He was
born from Mary, a virgin. He defeated Satan and renewed friendship with
God.
It is our secular humanist society that degrades women. It selectively
aborts baby girls, sexualizes young girls, drugs up young women, and
violates both their bodies and the bodies of their children. It turns
women into mere sex objects and legitimizes abuse (after all, they’re
equal with men in all respects). And by eliminating marriage it tries
to prevent the lifelong friendship of a faithful man. Perhaps you
remember that the age of chivalry, of knights in armour saving damsels
(or elderly women) in distress, was also an age of pervasive Christian
influence? That age is long gone.
I’m sorry, but you don’t know what you’re talking about when you treat
Christianity and Mohamedism the same with regard to rape. And
immediately after you accuse Christianity of treating men like animals
which have no conscience or self-control, you accuse it of oppressing
homosexuals. Well, I’m sorry, but homosexuals have become like animals
as far as sexual control is concerned. Their parents might be at fault
for a dysfunctional up-bringing, but the facts remain the same. It’s
the cycle of violence that evolutionism praises. And it’s evolutionism
that reduces human beings to highly evolved apes; Christianity sees them
as bearing the signature of God, a reason to treat even a human zygote
with awe and reverence.
Regarding Mrs. Palin, I was perhaps too easy on her. She should not be
a state governor; her children need her at home. Mr. Palin is supposed
to be the leader of the home, not a house husband. The reversal of
roles is itself a bad example for the children. But I don’t know the
Palin family, so I shouldn’t say much.
In a nutshell, you are justifying the Bible’s sexist views of women, and also homophobia. From the beginning the Bible vilifies women by blaming them “for bringing down” The Garden Of Eden. The Bible, written by men who were allegedly inspired by god. In my opinion it all boils down to physical strength and the need for control, not logic and reason. Christian teaching sets this model quite well for men.
There are many countries that are christian were abortion is illegal. Yet women seem to suffer from the same or worse inequalities. Making abortion illegal doesn’t make life better for women. But maybe it’s because women aren’t being meek or submissive enough.
In most of the middle east, there is no separation of church and state. In Saudi Arabia, women can’t work, I think almost recently are being allowed to drive a car(in writing anyway), have to cover up when in public and have to ask for permission to the husband or a male relative if they want to go out. How is this different from the role of women in Christianity that you quoted from the bible?
And rape is given a pass in both religions. Just recently the cardinal of Brazil excommunicated doctors who performed an abortion on a nine year old girl who was raped by her step-father. Her life was in jeopardy because her uterus was too small. The church excommunicated the mother for allowing the abortion but did not excommunicate the rapist because, i guess, rape is ok according to the catholic church. The little girl should simply deal with the consecuences and get over it. The cardinal said that if the 9 year old girl would have died because of the pregnancy than she would have become a martyr…
I don’t agree with Sarah Palin’s politics but kudos to her for using her natural talents and having success in her profession. Talents that her husband recognizes (maybe doesn’t possess himself but isn’t threatened by it) and supports her for it. Why should she let all that talent go to waste? If I was her daughter, I would be proud of having a mom who aspired to hold such an important job. It would motivate them to work harder.
In the end, you are entitled to believe what you want to. But I don’t believe in religion and many others (men and women alike) don’t either. I don’t believe that I should play second fiddle to any man. I believe, and logic tells me that women weren’t given a brain to give it up once they sign a marriage contract. And I’m fortunate that I was born in a time where I have more options than women of past generations, and that i live in a secular society. I have no desire to control anyone and i don’t want anyone controlling me or bossing me around. You and I obviously agree to disagree.
1. Go Pope!
2. @jr: It’s certainly true that there are Catholics who are imperfect. The Church is, after all, a human organization. But to criticize its views, you may want to look at what they actually are, rather than focusing on a couple examples of how they may be misrepresented.
For example, Mulieris Dignitatem, Pope John Paul II’s letter On the Dignity and Vocation of Women, sheds some light on some the comments you’ve made.
You say…
But, JPII writes…
The Pope explains that “domination” and “submission” are sinful, that we are called to rediscover the “unity of the two” through complete and total mutual self-giving, etc etc blah blah blah.
I mean, I’m sure there are still a ton of legitimate concerns you can raise and much to debate, but it’s more meaningful to engage with what the Church actually believes and teachings than to merely criticize a strawman built from sound bytes and headlines.
I think your last response to me is inaccurate in many respects:
(1) You think the Bible is all about sexism, “homophobia,”
vilification of women, and control. However, the Bible is really all about salvation and restoration. God made a way to again have peace with Him. The fact is that God always has been completely in control, but He feels compassion for human beings such as you and me. It all boils down to sin and the need for atonement and forgiveness. So when you say in the next paragraph that abortion-seeking women aren’t being meek or submissive enough, you are absolutely right. When a woman kills her child, she is essentially proclaiming her own godhood (like Eve in the Garden of Eden). Abortion boils down to physical strength and the need for control, not logic and reason.
(2) You say that in Saudi Arabia women can’t work. You say that they have to cover up when in public and have to ask for permission to the husband or a male relative if they want to go out. These restrictions may or may not be very different from Christianity, but you’re hardly listing all of them. Whereas God urges the husband to treat his wife with respect as a fellow citizen of the kingdom of heaven (1 Peter 3:7), Mohammed advised corporal punishment when necessary. Whereas God only allows divorce in the case where the marriage has already been broken (Matt. 19), Mohammed allowed a man to divorce a wife for almost any reason. And, obviously, God’s plan is that one man and one woman marry, but Mohammed had several wives.
But you aren’t being careful with your terms. Women in Saudi Arabia do work; they’re wives and mothers. They may be almost slaves in the process, but they certainly do work. I wouldn’t exactly find it “liberating” to have to raise my children on my own AND earn a living.
You say that women in Saudi Arabia must cover up, but you neglect to mention the extent to which they must cover up. Also, Saudi Arabia is a desert, where the sun beats down mercilessly and the sand sometimes blows. Under a similar sun, Vietnamese women wear hats, masks, and long gloves to protect their skin.
By the way, separation of church and state is a Christian concept, in its history too. The Lord Jesus said, “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s” (Luke 20:25). It’s not the same thing as separation of religion and state, which is impossible.
(3) You say that rape is given a pass in both Christianity and Mohamedism. Nonsense! Mohamedism might always blame the woman, but you don’t know what you are talking about with respect to Christianity. Even in the Old Testament theocracy–where God tolerated certain vices and attitudes because of the hardness of the people’s hearts–a case of gang rape led to civil war and the near extermination of the tribe of Benjamin. “Nothing like this has ever happened or been seen from the day when the sons of Israel came up from the land of Egypt to this day. Consider it, take counsel and speak up!” (Judges 19:30). Unlike the case in Sodom, the victim was a woman. “Now then, deliver up the men, the worthless fellows in Gibeah, that we may put them to death and remove this wickedness from Israel” (Judges 20:13).
And you should like this piece from Augustine (from CITY OF GOD, c.
A.D. 400), in which he is recalling the rape of the Roman woman Lucretia by King Tarquin’s son: heart-sick, and unable to bear the shame, she put an end to her life. What shall we call her? An adulteress, or chaste? There is no question which she was. Not more happily than truly did a declaimer say of this sad occurrence: “Here was a marvel: there were two, and only one committed adultery.” Most forcibly and truly spoken. For this declaimer, seeing in the union of the two bodies the foul lust of the one, and the chaste will of the other, and giving heed not to the contact of the bodily members, but to the wide diversity of their souls, says: “There were two, but the adultery was committed only by one.” But how is it, that she who was no partner to the crime bears the heavier punishment of the two? For the adulterer was only banished along with his father; she suffered the extreme penalty. If that was not impurity by which she was unwillingly ravished, then this is not justice by which she, being chaste, is punished.
You have also misrepresented the rape-and-murder situation in Brazil.
Bobby Bambino, a Roman Catholic American, said the following on March
7 on Jill Stanek’s website: “So anytime someone participates in an abortion, they are automatically excommunicated in the Latin Church (assuming they KNOW this). This is all spelled out in the 1983 code of canon law (I can find the numbers if you wish). So it’s been on the books for years (and I would guess was on the books in the 1917 code as well). It’s simply because a large majority of Catholic laity do not understand the severity of an abortion. There is so much confusion out there that for a lot of people, it isn’t clear if it REALLY is OK or not to have an abortion and be Catholic. With rape, not so much. No one needs extra nagging to know that rape is wrong. Everyone, except weirdo philosophers, knows that rape is wrong. Bus that isn’t the case with abortion, so part of the solution is to have extra canonical penalties for participating in one. That is why the mother and doctor were automatically excommunicated (the Bishop did not excommunicate them, they were excommunicated automatically, immediately; ex opere operato you might say, haha, little Catholic joke there) But that’s the idea.”
The truth is that forced (i.e. induced) abortion is given a pass in current secular humanism and feminism.
(4) You say that “women weren’t given a brain to give it up once they sign a marriage contract.” I don’t think anybody is saying that women should give up their brains. You’re again misrepresenting the situation. The Holy Spirit glorifies the Son, and the Son glorifies the Father, but all three persons are omniscient God. And have you considered the Proverbs 31 woman? Like my mother and sisters, she is one busy, intelligent, fulfilled woman!
@blaise alleyne
you say that the examples that i’ve mentioned on this blog are “sound bytes” and “misrepresentations” because you disagree with them. Judging from your “Go Pope” line above, you don’t seem to be calling the quotes from the Pope in the article mentioned on this site a misrepresentation because you agree with it. I will continue to hold accountable what religious authorities say and what they do.
@jon
you are not going to change my mind and i am not going to change yours. You believe in god and religion and that everything the christian bible says is the word of god and should be made into law of the land. I don’t believe in god or religion, i don’t need to be “saved” or forgiven, i’m a good, productive citizen, i’ve never done anything illegal. But i do want to clarify something: when i said that women are suffering from inequalities probably because they aren’t being meek or submissive enough, i was being sarcastic. Women should never be told what they can and can’t do with their bodies.
@jr The quotes form the article aren’t a misrepresentation because the folks at LifeSite know how to read the Vatican bulletin and go directly to the source, nevermind the fact that they’re also familiar with Church teaching and the context of whatever comments are being made. I’m simply suggesting that in the process of “hold[ing] accountable what religious authorities say and what they do” you might want to go directly to the source and understand a bit of the context as well.